a bush family member asked:
Isn’t kind of dumb for China to think it still owns Taiwan? It has been over 50 years since Taiwan has had its own government. Under international law, it take just 50 years for a country to form. China also used the same law as proof of ownership of Tibet.
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/editorials/archives/2007/08/17/2003374626
To Hao Li: Hawaii chose to become a U.S. state. In 1959, over 90% of Hawaiians chose for Hawaii to become a state and stop being a territory.
And polls show most people in Taiwan don’t want to be part of China.
“140000 votes cast, less than 8000 rejected the Admission Act of 1959.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Admission_of_Hawaii_Act
tell that to 1 billion Chinese
Comment by Ford Prefect — September 20, 2006 @ 10:03 pm
because it’s just chinese people breaking away from other chinese people
therefore, since it’s essentially the same people, they claim it because they are obviously the bigger power
Comment by TS — September 23, 2006 @ 10:52 am
Imagine if the democrats and republicans had a war with each other. One of them was winning and pushed the other party’s army out of the contiential U.S. and all they held was Hawaii. Both sides view themselves as the only legitimate government of the entire country – not just the mainland, not just the island.
Comment by Damocles — September 26, 2006 @ 5:49 am
I agree with the one guy comparing the situation to Hawaii. Its essentially the same situation. If some party fled to Hawaii and claimed HAWAII as the legitimate government and country of the U.S. How do you think the mainland Americans will feel? Would the Mainland American government want to take back Hawaii as part of their state? There is no different. The finality is, that its really not about human rights and democracy and issues like that. I think thats mainly a propaganda used towards legitimizing Taiwan’s independence from China. Why Does china want Taiwan back? well People from taiwan are from China. Some people deny that Taiwanese people are not Chinese people. But people from Taiwan are ALL from China (unless you are one of those mountain aboriginal people). The Chinese people do not want to separate themselves into two countries. That is why. So its hard for a foreigner to REALLY understand why China wants Taiwan back. You rarely hear China’s side of the story in the International media, because international media has this gloomy vision of China as a totalitarian regime, which it really isn’t. China didn’t use that particular law to make tibet part of their own. China basically went into Tibet, put their troops there, and then it became part of the country. Same way the U.S. did with its west coast, including California. So this is why.
Comment by Hao Li — September 27, 2006 @ 9:33 am
China is bluffing.
They know that they have no legitimate claim to Taiwan’s territory.
If you analyze their claims, you will see that they have nothing.
They say that Taiwan has been a part of China from time immemmorial. This is not true.
It was a province of China for a total of 10 years. Taiwan was made a province of Ching Dynasty China from 1885 to 1895.
The Ching Emperor only made it province to try to preempt the Japanese, who had been eyeing it for years. This didn’t work. The Japanese trounced the Chinese in a war and took full legal possession and sovereignty of Taiwan (then known as Formosa). Taiwan was a legitimate and internationally recognized part of Japan from 1895 to 1952.
Formosa and the Pescadores, were permanently ceded by Qing Dynasty China to Imperial Japan via Articles 2b and 2c of the Treaty of Shimonoseki in May 8, 1895.
Before that (1683 to 1885) some western coastal regions of Taiwan were under Ching control. The mountain and eastern coastal regions were not claimed by the Chinese, which called those areas savage areas “outside of the Chinese world”. They were an unclaimed frontier. The Ching Emperors were very ambivalent about Taiwan and were not interested in claiming or managing Taiwan. They simply wanted to deny its use to any rebels to Ching rule. In fact, Ching Emperor K’ang-hsi expressed the sentiment that Taiwan was “the size of a pellet; taking it is no gain; not taking it is no loss” He also officially regarded Taiwan as “a ball of mud beyond the pale of civilization” There were only about 7,000 Chinese people in Taiwan in 1683 (they had been brought there as workers by the Dutch).
Before that, parts of Taiwan were controlled by Koxinga, a wealthy half-Japanese pirate and Ming loyalist rebel to the Ching regime. Koxinga had kicked out the Dutch. He ruled Taiwan from 1662 to 1683. .
The Dutch ruled Taiwan from 1623 to 1662.
The Spanish had also concurrently occupied northern Taiwan from 1626 to 1642 but their control was not as extensive as the Dutch. Before the Dutch came, there were no ethnically Chinese people on Taiwan.
The name Formosa was given by Portugese sailors but Portugal never occupied Taiwan.
Before that, Taiwan was entirely owned by its indigenous inhabitants. These are Austronesian peoples with various languages and cultures. These original Taiwanese are about 2% of Taiwan’s present population. Western people have been in North America longer than Chinese have been in Taiwan.
The Chinese claim that the Taiwanese are ethnically Chinese and that this somehow gives China a right to Taiwan. This is of course risible nonsense.
Yes, they are ethnically Chinese. (hwa ren 華人) No one disputes that. There are also many Chinese in other countries as well. They are a majority in Singapore. They are also signifigant populations in other countries; almost 8 million in Indonesia, 7 million in Malaysia, 7 million in Thailand, over 3 million in the USA.
Also, no one disputes that the Taiwanese language is from Fujian Province in China. Taiwanese people do not deny this.
But ethnicity and language does not equate to a right to claim territory. If that were true, America, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and every other English speaking country would have Great Britain aiming missiles at them and keeping them locked out of the international community.
Taiwan could indeed be independent if it weren’t blocked by the US. They have every legal right to independence. One point should be made clear:
Taiwan independence is not independence from the PRC; rather, it is independence from the ROC.
There is only one China and that is the PRC. Taiwan is not part of the PRC.China is irrelevant to the Taiwan question! China legally signed Taiwan away in 1895 in perpetuity. Just like Spain signed away California!
Why do the American’s always stick their nose into the Taiwan issue?
Because ever since WW2, America has been the legal “Principal Occupier” of Taiwan. Since the Treaty of San Francisco in 1952, America holds the legal title to the Taiwan territory. In its status as the Principle Occupier, the US has plenary disposition rights over the territory of Taiwan. So far, the US has not signed Taiwan over to anyone.
Japan did exercise internationally sanctioned, legal sovereignty over Taiwan and held de jure title to its territory untill it was ceded in the Treaty of San Francisco in 1952.
Pursuant to the SFPT, Japan renounced its sovereignty over Taiwan and title to its territory. Article 2(b) of the SFPT read: “Japan renounces all right, title and claim to Formosa and the Pescadores.”
By fleeing to occupied Taiwan in December 1949, the ROC had already become a government in exile.
Under international law, there are no actions which a government in exile can take in its current location of residence in order to be recognized as the local legitimate government. Hence, Taiwan’s current international problems have arisen from the fact that the ROC government-in-exile is not internationally recognized as the legitimate government of Taiwan. The ROC should be dissolved and succeeded by a new government of Taiwan.
Taiwan deserves to be a separate and independent country. As one of the “territories which detached from enemy states as a result of the Second World War” defined in the article 76b and 77b of the United Nations Charter, Taiwan has qualified for the UN trusteeship program since 1945! In this program, (like Korea: another former Japanese colony), after a period of time the territory would later be considered fully independent. All members of the United Nations have a treaty obligation to comply with the UN Charter and help the people living in Taiwan enjoy the right of self-determination.
While Article 2(b) of the SFPT did not designate a recipient of “all right, title and claim to Formosa and the Pescadores,” Article 23 of the SFPT designated the US as “the principal occupying power” with respect to the territories covered by the geographical scope of the SFPT, including “Formosa and the Pescadores.”
Following the entry into force of the SFPT, the ROC government continued to occupy Taiwan under the authority of the US (the principal occupying power)
,The SFPT did not terminate the agency relationship between the US, the principal, and the ROC, the agent, with regard to the occupation and administration of Taiwan.
Following the entry into force of the SFPT on April 28, 1952, the ROC did NOT exercise sovereignty over Taiwan and did not have title to its territory.
China bases their claims to Taiwan on the Cairo Declaration: What a flimsy thing to base a claim on! It isn’t even written on paper or signed by anyone. What a joke! You use a radio address as proof while you ignore a ratified international treaty that contradicts it!
The so-called Cairo Declaration was merely an unsigned press communique which does not carry any legal status at all, while the Potsdam Proclamation and Instrument of Surrender were simply modus vivendi and armistice which function as temporary records and do not bear legally binding power to transfer sovereignty.
Good faith of interpretation ONLY takes place at the level of treaties.
The retrocession proclaimed by ROC in 1945 was legally null and impossible since Taiwan was still de jure part of Japan before the post-war San Francisco Peace Treaty came into effect on April 28, 1952. After the San Francisco Peace Treaty came into effect, the sovereignty of Taiwan naturally belonged to the Taiwanese people and none other, but was temporarily held in trust by the USA.
From 1945 to the present, Taiwan has been an occupied territory of the US since they are the principal occupying power. Currently, Taiwan is an occupied territory of the US, and Taiwan’s statehood status is disputed and uncertain. Neither the SFPT, the Treaty of Taipei nor any other subsequent legal instruments after 1952 have changed the status of Taiwan.
I think it should be clear now that the US is OBLIGATED to defend Taiwan, since it is US insular territory! That’s why the Taiwan Relations Act is a DOMESTIC law of the United States.
It can be seen that the US does not have the best interests of the Taiwanese people at heart in their underhanded handling of this occupation.
If only the US had done right thing when they had the chance. …
Instead they wanted to have their cake and eat it too.
The international community does not recognize the ROC on Taiwan as a state, because it does not hold the territorial title to Taiwan. In the words of Chiang Kai-shek himself in 1950: “The ROC is a perished nation”
The only country which has the authority or power to grant the Taiwanese people the self-determination which is their right, is acting in a grossly negligent fashion. The US should be supporting the Taiwanese in creating a legitimate civil government. This should have been done in the 1940’s or 1950’s at the latest.
The US holds all the cards, but won’t admit it openly.
This is a strange and confusing state of affairs, but one thing is abundantly clear:
CHINA HAS NO LEGAL CLAIM TO TAIWAN WHATSOEVER
The big surprise is: NEITHER DOES THE ROC.
Taiwan is a cession, whose status is intentionally being kept in an unclear limbo.
Comment by alfajuj — September 29, 2006 @ 2:36 am
why don’t Americans leave Iraq? Iraq is not their country anyway! Ask your damn government to withdraw yourself from there!
Y u taiwanese don’t go to Japan since u guys like there so much and give back taiwan to China? Then there will be in peace and no more headache!
Comment by Dude — September 29, 2006 @ 3:10 am
I don’t think it is dumb, don’t insult one whole nationality of people…
If you are pro indenpence, then there is no point to debate with you but all countries acknowlege China’s soverighty over Taiwan.
Sure America said they will defend Taiwan if China use force, but then, it will be one of the biggest disaster in humanity, for the whole world.
Perhaps it might be smarter to look into future, find a way to secure fully autonomous, even better than what Hong Kong and Macao got?
Meanwhile, why not take care of the people’s living standard first. Afterall, the only people making money are those who gone to the other side to make it.
Comment by disckoala — October 2, 2006 @ 4:23 am
Who said that China WANT TO own Taiwan? In fact,China don’t want Taiwan at all. But why do China THINK Taiwan belong to them? It’s easy.If China recognizes Taiwan IS a country,Tibet will said that since Taiwan is a country,Tibet can be a country,too. To avoid this event happen, China never recognize Taiwan owns its government. Once the politician of China said that China don’t want Taiwan at all,if it was not Tibet,China will let Taiwan be independent as soon as possible. The problem of Taiwan has persecuted China for a long time.
Comment by moulikebutterfly — October 3, 2006 @ 7:53 pm